Wall Street To Y'all Street

[00:00:00] Today's guest believes most leadership training is a complete waste of time.
And after helping more than 500 leaders across 20 organizations build healthier teams, he has the data to back that up. Rhet Miles is the founder of Leadwell, where he works with organizations to fix one of the most expensive and misunderstood problems in business. Leadership dysfunction. Instead of motivational workshops or feel good seminars, Brett helps companies install what he calls a leadership operating system, a repeatable framework that builds trust, alignment, and self-awareness inside teams.
And before entering the business world, Brett spent more than 16 years in ministry where he learned how to understand people at a deeper level, spotting the root issues that hold individuals and teams back. Today through Leadwell, he uses that insight along with tools like Giant's Five Voices Framework, and executive coaching to help leaders transform their organizations in measurable ways, improving engagement, performance, and retention from small to mid-size businesses all the way up to Fortune 500 [00:01:00] companies.
In a world where most managers are promoted without ever being trained to lead Brett's work raises, I think a big question. What if the biggest problem in business today is not strategy, but leadership. Yeah. Brett, welcome. Yeah, thanks for having me, Justin. Thank you for being here. before we get into what you're doing, and how it applies with respect to leadership and how you see, business, can be improved through leadership training, maybe if you will share a little bit about.
So I grew up in, just outside of Oklahoma City. And had a dad that was really intentional with, like how to be prepared for the world and for life. And so everything from, Hey, come, let me show you how to change the oil and then you're gonna do it.
So he modeled this, thing we've gotten away from, this like mentorship, this apprenticeship of let me show you. And train you and then let you start doing it. And so that was just his mo. And so I didn't really grow up thinking to myself as a leader necessarily.
I loved being on teams. I loved, using my gifts in a team setting. And then in college, I got a job working [00:02:00] at a summer camp, with kids. my third summer there, the director said, Hey, I want you to be a part of my leadership team.
I think you'd be a great addition to our team. It was like my first taste of leading other people. still in college. so now I was removed from the kids and I was with our staff who were all college students also.
And it was really daunting to me 'cause I hadn't done it before. At the end of that summer. He said you've done a great job this summer. I think the next level for you as a leader here, and even after our time here is for you. To feel confident that you know how to lead the staff.
You don't have to come to me and go, Hey, what should we do? Or what do you think about this? And so I felt really empowered by his leadership. Like he saw me, he understood my gifts, and he just encouraged me that, Hey, you can do this, I believe in you. And that really propelled me forward, I think through college in my twenties to go, oh, I am capable.
Somebody seen it in me and affirmed it in me and breezed that in me. and so then I, there were more opportunities the longer I was there. And then when I left, and got out into the nonprofit ministry world, I was [00:03:00] having to then recruit volunteers and lead them and develop them and mentor them.
And so early on I was like, oh, I can do this. I think I am wired for this. I was in the ministry and nonprofit world in different organizations for 16 years and was under great leaders, was under, I think, pretty poor leaders. So I saw both sides of it. I also got a lot of opportunity to lead and to speak and to develop teams and to recruit people and, develop programs, you name it, which was really incredible.
I think I got to see all aspects of how an organization can function. And so then when I was, in Austin in 2014, I moved here for a job. fast forward I met my wife here. We started having kiddos when we had our third kid. The ultimate leadership? Yes.
Nothing trains you for leadership, like being a parent and just learning how to die to yourself and go, life is more than just me now. I'm responsible for other people and I need to show up. Really intentionally for them. not just for me. So when we had our third kiddo, my wife was like, Hey, I think what's [00:04:00] asked of you with your current job and with what you're being paid, I don't think we can keep doing this.
and I was feeling that too. I wanted to be home more if my kids were little. I did wanna miss mornings. I didn't wanna miss taking 'em to school, picking 'em up. Any weekend stuff that was asked of me with the church or whatever. got introduced to Giant, you mentioned them and they used to be, just a leadership development company for a long time.
They owned all of Chick-fil-A leadership. Oh, wow. and they had worked with a lot of really influential organizations and they saw that their model was really working and their tools were really, impacting people because Chick-fil-A is an exceptional company. Exceptional when it comes to leadership.
Yeah. It's known for that. Go there because of it. And their culture's incredible. And so their vision aligned with kind of how giant saw leadership and how they wanted to like, see that grow, there. Due to how effective that they were, they said, what if we changed our model from being just a big company that took on big clients and we brought in people, trained them, gave them the access to all the tools, and then turned them loose to go do [00:05:00] this everywhere.
I got introduced to them. It felt like a really great fit from what I'd been doing, and didn't have to recreate the wheel. So it's essentially an affiliate model where they train me, I get certified through them. There's a whole network of people around the world doing what I'm doing, have started their own businesses.
And so I'm not alone, even though I'm in Austin. It's just me and my, executive assistant. so jumped in with them really quickly, had very little safety net, and, saw God provide an incredible ways. And I was just like, all right, we're gonna cut our teeth and we're gonna do this thing.
I had zero business classes to my name. really no experience in the marketplace. but I've been for the last two and a half years learning nonstop, getting my own coaching and my own development as a business owner. Yeah. Also helping on the leadership side.
Yeah. Man, it's been a ton of fun on a wild road, but, it's checked all the boxes that we've needed, like more prep in charge of my own schedule. Thank you for that. one of the things you said I want to just touch on, I don't want to interrupt you. You said that you coming up, you had, you saw both good leadership and then you saw bad leadership.
[00:06:00] Yeah. And so we've all lived under good leadership. That's wonderful. Bad leadership. That's an excruciating period in any career. Yeah. Do you feel like though you learn just as much? Maybe For sure. I don't think I had language for what I was experiencing back then, but I do now. And I think Giant has created a lot of the frameworks and some tools and some ways of viewing leadership that I'm like, oh, that's what that was like.
I was really influenced by coaches and teachers growing up, outside of my parents and I'm still to this day, obsessed with baseball and so played baseball through high school and had a coach that was what we would call a dominator. He used fear and manipulation to get what he wanted, right?
he was a barker and a yeller, and you never knew if he liked you and you had to stay in his good graces and do everything right so that you could. Play and be positioned to perform. And his leadership was heavy handed and I didn't feel known and seen and cared for.
I was just part of the vehicle of trying to make him a successful coach. and then I get to in college, and I have this leader at this camp who is, very humble. [00:07:00] And served me. What do you need? How can I support you? But also challenged me. And so now we use this tool, from Giant called the Support Challenge Matrix.
Where you go, okay. are you high support and are you high Challenge 'cause high support. High challenge leaders empower others. They are, providing care and support. But they also don't let you just skate, right? They're gonna hold you accountable. They're gonna give you firm boundaries and they're gonna push you.
But when you feel pushed, you don't feel called out or shamed. You feel called up and empowered oh man, you believe in me. I want to rise to this level that you see from me. More than I do. And so started to see leaders like that. Certainly saw leaders like that in the church. Also saw, leaders in the nonprofit church world that it was like, are you, is this about us or is this about.
And now having had those experiences and having some of the frameworks and the tools that I'm using now and really exposure to those for the last two and a half years, I'm able to spot that pretty quickly to go, your people are afraid to speak up [00:08:00] because you're more of a high challenge, low support leader.
You're a dominator and so they don't feel free to bring any challenge to you Yeah. They've seen what happens. They're stifled. Yeah. And that keeps, progress ideas when people, positive culture, all of that down. good. People leave. Yeah. they will. Yeah. exactly. Something I've always wondered about
Let me know if you agree or disagree. I've always seen instances where, not always, but I've seen so many instances where people are promoted to leadership, but they've never been trained to lead all the time. I was one of those. Why? Why is that? I think it's a natural problem where they want to maximize capacity of their team and they want to grow and they want to, in the marketplace scale.
And so the natural progression is, Hey, you were really good at this job. And now we need somebody to lead this group of people that does this job. But all that person knows is the job. And there's very little training that goes into this brand new job of leading a team. And you, it's so hard for people to get out of the weeds of I'll just take that for you 'cause I know what I'm [00:09:00] doing and it'll be faster if I do it as opposed to the slow work of.
let me show you how to do this, and then I'm gonna have you take parts of it, and then I'm gonna have you own it and I'm gonna help you. And then eventually you're gonna run and you're gonna feel really competent. We throw people around the curve of this competency curve of they don't know what they're doing and they don't know what they don't know.
they're just thrown into this I need you to be running. Here's the expectation. Here's what I need you to do. They're like, I don't know how to do that. And so we call it the pit of despair where they're like, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to get out of this. I feel like I'm not doing my job.
I feel like I don't know how to do this. I have people depending on me, and I don't wanna let them down. I don't wanna let my boss down. And I think it's everywhere. And I don't fault a lot of, execs or people that are making decisions for it.
They're like, we love having you on our team. You bring a lot to us. You've been really valuable. We wanna promote you. But there's not a lot of intention or thought around how do I make sure that you are prepared? For this brand new role and this brand new job where you can flourish. and so I think that's a real problem and [00:10:00] I see it everywhere and I think people feel it and they go, we don't know what to do about this.
And so they'll come to me and go, we have managers who don't know how to lead their teams. And I go of course you do. And so this is the thing that you guys need to adjust, but also like they need help right now, but you need to adjust how you're developing your people. If you want them to rise the ranks of your organization, how do you prepare them for that?
You can't just throw 'em into a new seat and go, all right, take off. And it also comes back, I think, partly to the KPIs. And so you're taken in this role. And then you're put into a leadership role and it's what are the metrics? What's success in this role? It's output or it's revenue where it's
Up over this quarter. But none of it relates to are your people participating? being part of the process? Are they happy? Are they engaged? Yeah. What's the retention rate? Is that even tracked in some companies? Maybe not. Yeah.
So the KPIs are key. numbers don't lie. And that's all very interesting. You have said most leadership training is basically useless. That's a waste of time. Why is that? I think people are starting to catch on, but what I experienced in my previous roles was. [00:11:00] Hey, we're gonna bring this person in.
we're gonna have a seminar on this topic, and then we're gonna try to figure out, and it's like they would pay the money to bring somebody in and speak to our team. And we'd go, man, that was awesome. And then six weeks later, we didn't do anything with that, except we felt like that was a really neat thing.
He had a lot of great things to say, or she taught us a lot of things, but there was no like, how do we get this into the soil? Actually transform how we do what we do. Or even Hey, we're gonna take our whole team to this conference and there's all these speakers and breakouts, that'll be amazing and that they call that team development.
And it's really valuable time to retreat with your team and get that kind of concentrated time together. But if you don't come back and take the things that you've learned and adopt them or figure out How do we take the things we learned and change what we do, and change how we operate?
Then you just, you wasted your time and money. Yeah. It's, if you're not taking away action steps, what was the point? You got some rah out of it. Maybe everyone felt good. Yeah. we checked the box, have some ideas that were fleeting, but nothing was split in action. Yeah. And these are big [00:12:00] numbers.
companies are they doing it just as window dressing because it's always been done. if it's not effective. Or is it just maybe the demographic has shifted and the leadership training and seminars haven't caught up?
I think it's both, right? I think studies show that in the US we disengaged employees. Across the country resulted in $8.8 trillion in, lost revenue. Wow. that's a big number. and so I think there's this, like we, this is a thing we, have to do, we should do, but they don't know how to do it.
and I think it's a thing that you can tell a prospective, applicant, Hey, we invest in your development. They call it development, but it's just like we do these one-off things. There's no real intentional system and how we develop you and prepare you and actually, take care of you.
and then there's also, the younger millennials and Gen X and Gen Z or Gen Zs and even younger, they're rolling into the marketplace and they're not asking questions about compensation structures and benefits and how do I [00:13:00] progress and climb the ladder? they're walking in asking the question, what's it like to be here?
Am I gonna like it? Are you gonna, are you gonna take care of me? is this worth my time? And if they don't feel like it is, they'll move on pretty quickly. And so I think people have, they're realizing that I think slowly, that, oh, we have to adopt how we even do this and think about this. To your point, we use this fly.
model to talk about maximizing team performance. And there's five components and it has to function in the flywheel. Think of a watermill or whatever. it has to spin. but oftentimes they just focus on parts four and five, which are performance. It's execution and capacity.
And what they fail to realize is hey, alignment is a, execution is a byproduct of our alignment. If we're not aligned, we can't perform like we wanna perform. And. To be aligned. There has to be psychological safety and trust. Like it has to be a high trust environment. Otherwise, we're not gonna be aligned.
We're gonna have silos everywhere. that's not my thing. That's not my job starts to happen. But in order for there to be trust and psychological safety, there has to be [00:14:00] like an emphasis on healthy and productive communication. And built into communication is, are you self-aware as a leader, do you know how your people experience you?
And the answer usually is no. so we're not self-aware. We're not others aware. And so then it's hard to really establish trust and for people to feel like, oh, you're for me, you're not just trying to get something out of me. And so most people, organizations, because there's demand on KPIs and there's investors or there's a board or whatever, that are, driving it performance and they're neglecting well, do we communicate effectively and well?
And obviously everybody's different. So are we taking into account how everybody. Communicates and are we working to build trust where it's broken and to create firm foundations for relationships working relationships. And then are we aligned, right? Or is everybody just running in their lane?
I think it's a big part of it. Yeah. No, I can't imagine when I was coming up, because I am older, having asked what is it like to work here [00:15:00] and not asking about my pay or my vacation. What do you mean? What's it like to work here? You're going to work,
You never thought in those, with that lens and the 8 trillion plus dollars, that is huge. And puts a number on another statistic, which is something like 21% of workers are not engaged. Yeah. Or only 21% of workers are engaged at work. Yeah. The balance aren't. And, and on that, now, on that note, how much turnover in organizations do you think is from bad leadership?
Yeah, I would say almost all of it, right? I think Forbes did a study and they said that employees don't leave bad jobs and bad companies, they leave bad bosses, and most I have a lot of friends here in Austin that are in the tech space, like friends at Apple or Amazon,
every time I see them and I go, how are things going? They're like, oh man, my team is so dysfunctional, my boss and blah. Like they, they have golden handcuffs because of the paycheck. And they're like, I don't know. I can't leave, but I hate it here. And I don't feel like they are utilizing my gifts and my skills or they ask very [00:16:00] little of me or they ask too much of me.
I see it all the time here where they're like. if it wasn't for the paycheck, you would've left already because of the bad leadership and the bad culture. And those goldwin handcuffs only last so long, right? It takes a toll, right? Like it takes a toll on you as a person and on your family, right?
So that's another thing that I spend a lot of time with people talking about is like, Hey, Do you know how you show up here at work? But how are you showing up at home and how you're wired is essential. Knowing that is essential to knowing. Are you gonna implode? And if you implode the next ripple is your family.
And so if you're not paying attention to your own self and how you're showing up and your own accountability and doing the work of self-awareness, then it's going to directly impact your family unit, which I think is more important than your work relationships and your job. You can go get a job.
so that's a huge problem. So you've worked with hundreds of leaders. What do you think is the most common leadership flaw that you see? A lack of self-awareness. Okay. Yeah. and related to that is a lack of others' awareness. You'll have somebody who's wired with one of the voices of the [00:17:00] five, and they just assume like, all of us do that.
surely you see the world and you think about this the same as me. And so they extend their expectations for themselves and the way that they think to everybody. But there are all kinds of different people that are wired so cause she just, she never speaks up or whatever it is. so I think it's that.
A lot of this is psychology, right? Yeah. A lot of this is psychology, and we talk about, we've talked about good workers becoming leaders because they're good workers, but they don't have the skills to do this. And you've touched on this a little bit, but what happens to that person psychologically when they get promoted into that position?
Yeah, I mean they, they're like, I'm, I guess I wasn't cut out for this or I'm a failure, Or they fake it. Imposter syndrome. Like I gotta make it look like I know what I'm doing. I gotta be busy. And so if they're always busy, then everybody goes, oh, you must be doing, you must be doing a good job.
And so there's a lot of emotion and there's not a lot of action because they don't know what they're, dunno what to do. And so they just, they look around and wise enough, they'll go, Hey, what are you doing? How are you leading? And so they'll. try to lean on other [00:18:00] people that they trust, but otherwise they just fake it till they make it.
It's dangerous 'cause You have people under you that are relying on you you're flying around with no idea. In some instances, do leaders in that position, do you think they know that their people are miserable? depends on the size of the organization maybe.
and even just the pressure of like their boss. There are people that they are getting pressure from above. So then they apply the pressure. And a lot of the work I was telling one of my clients, we'd started with a new client recently. It took, we took a half day. it's a whole executive leadership team for a city here in West Texas.
I know a lot of you have a lot to do and you're busy and there's a lot waiting for you after we're done here today. But what we're doing here is giving you a chance to sharpen your ax blade. Most of you're out there just swinging, you're chopping wood all day. you're chopping down trees left and right, and you're swinging dull blades and your hands are.
Bleeding and you're exhausted and so this kind of work feels unproductive, but it's actually allowing you time to sharpen your [00:19:00] blades and rest your hands and this is really important to your job. And so don't just see that this as another thing that hopefully is over soon so you can go to the important thing your job.
if you will engage and lean in, this is gonna make that way more fruitful and way more, enjoyable for you. So like a lot in life, you just take a step back, reassess, build a foundation, and then move forward. Not just be myopic. and the KPIs. It's that's only gonna last so far.
'cause that team's gonna Dissipate. Churn. You talk about installing a leadership operating system. what is that? It feels fancier than it is, but again, most organizations and most leaders, they don't have a plan or an approach to development and leading their team.
And so what Giant's done, what I do is I go, Hey, here's how we're gonna do this. We are gonna focus on communication and I'm gonna spend time training you. And, you're gonna learn some new language and some new tools, and then we're gonna break from training. And then the next time I'm with you, four weeks from [00:20:00] now, get into the weeds and I'm gonna hold you accountable and I'm gonna ask you intentional questions about how are you experiencing the things that we talked about?
How are you and how are you working them into the soil of your life and your work? because it's consistent, right? It's like any investment. If you wanna invest your money, you don't just put it in for a month and then you pull it out and expect a big return. It's no, this happens over time.
And so for you guys to learn the language and really begin to grasp the tools and utilize them, it's gonna take, you learning and some training and then talking to each other. And then me being able to step in and provide some coaching and ask hard questions and be the one that's challenging you on how are you actually using this?
And so usually that's over the course of a year. And so the trainings that we do are intentionally lined out to get us around that flywheel of communication, relational trust, alignment, execution, and capacity. And we saved those for the last on purpose. and so it's like we're gonna approach all facets of this so that you guys are functioning and it's spending like it should, and we're gonna do it in this order [00:21:00] and over this amount of time.
so now there's a plan and there's a system. I'm starting with a new client at the end of the month and she included me on the email she sent to her team about, Hey, I need you guys to lean into this because this is gonna give us a structured approach to how to show up the best we can show up and to develop our people as leaders.
it gives them language, it gives them tools, and it gives them an approach, and a way to think about. Leadership and organizational health that they just don't have. Are people receptive to this, or do you get a lot of push? Oh, overwhelmingly are they're like, I thank you so much.
It feels you know the summers as a kid drinking out of the hose whenever you've been playing all day. it's refreshing. They're like, oh my, and it's simple. That's what I love about what Giants has created is the five voices and all the tools are really visual. So there's a neurolinguistic component, so you don't have to go, wait, what was that term?
It's oh no, I remember the, that's what it looks like. And now I remember the concept. And so it's really simple. and they took a lot of the science from Myers Briggs. And they said, it's too complex. We don't understand. People are having a hard time connecting [00:22:00] how they're wired to how someone else is wired.
So they made it way more simple. so that people could grasp it really quickly and start to utilize it and use the language quickly. And so the barrier to entry is really low. they don't have to learn a lot of new things quickly. it's a little bit at a time,
Overwhelmingly, their feedback is, this is really good. And because it feels intentional and because I'm the one that gets to drive it, it's not some, exec, or team lead or whatever business owner that's like having to learn everything and own it. Also, I get to step in and own it and then leave behind eventually.
here's how we do this and here are the tools that I want you to use, and here's how this looks. Is leadership a skill you can actually measure though, or is it more just personality? Yeah, it's a great, so it, , it's more qua qualitative than it is quantitative in terms of measurables. And so some of the ways we do measure that though are.
We have a, it's an anonymous survey of sorts. It's called a team performance assessment. And so we'll do them throughout the year. we'll create a baseline, we'll do it initially, and then what it does is it [00:23:00] gives the team as a whole, a chance to speak into how healthy are we when it comes to our communication, when it comes to the trust of our team, when it comes to how aligned we are, how we execute and maximize our capacity.
And so over time, the hope would be that. the survey indicates that, things are feeling healthier and that the things that we scored really low on aren't as low anymore, which means we've worked on it, which means you're actually growing and most of the time people will see people are more engaged.
People aren't looking around like they used to. in those organization, we're generating more business. Ultimately. the customers are happy, Is that something you measure one quarter in a year later? Yeah, I try to do it over the course of 12 months, three or four times.
Okay. So yeah, we set a baseline. We'll do it a couple times in the middle, so quarterly ish, and then we'll do one at the end and it helps them to go look at how you guys look at the payoff, and hopefully you feel this and overwhelmingly people are like, yeah, it feels different. Which is the goal.
Sometimes you can't [00:24:00] measure that, but those are the things that are gonna keep people around and retain good employees, 'cause they're like, oh, it feels better here. It's so expensive to replace good, strong team players who know what they doing. It's like salary and a half. It's crazy.
Yeah. And it depends on what market you're in. If you're in a down market for hiring, it could be more. that's right. it hits the bottom line. What's the biggest leadership myth you think that's out there? Oh gosh. Leadership myth. that more is better, that we have to train our people on all these different things.
There's so much content around. Leadership and, teams and organizational health. And so I think they don't know where to start. And so they're like, let's just do everything. let's bring in a speaker and let's go to a conference and let's do a book study together. Let's read this book together and let's try this.
And then the number of people that I've had that were like, yeah, we've done the DISC assessment before and we did this assessment. But it never stuck. 'cause there wasn't a plan to, incorporate this into our work? And [00:25:00] so I think they try to do too much. they're checking all these boxes to go, if we do all these things, surely something will stick and something click, it'll work.
if you could eliminate one leadership habit that destroys teams, what would it be? . like for example, for years it was avoid the micromanager. Yeah. I, so one thing I feel like I see a lot now on LinkedIn and in other places is this idea of hire good people and leave them alone.
So it's, that's the swing away from micromanagement and it's no, don't leave them alone. but have an intentional plan to develop and then they may need more from you. This person may need more. Yeah, this person may be ready to run. And so I, again, I think it comes back to do you know how you lead and how people experience you?
do you know what each person on your team needs? That's interesting. leadership isn't just a catch all. it is nuanced for different personality types and perhaps where they are in their career, right? They need different leadership. and so you not only have to be able to lead, but you have to be able to also assess.
and then maybe use different tools for [00:26:00] different people. Is that what you're saying? Or how do I apply this tool to this person who's wired differently than this person? Because head of sales may need more challenge from me right now. they know that they have my support, but I think I need to push them more.
And this, administrative assistant. I think she sees me as the scary boss and feels too much challenge, and I don't have enough proximity and she needs more support. She needs to know that I'm for her. So it's knowing your people and knowing you well enough to go, what do they need from me? but that means you have to be in the weeds with them and be really intentional.
And so I think to your question, about something that destroys teams is this idea that, everybody's the same and we're gonna treat them all the same. employees, team members aren't widgets, right? No, they're not cogs in the wheel like they're people, right?
I, there's this image I see a lot from this guy that I follow where the difference between a leader and a boss, and a boss is standing on the chariot whipping the horses, driving them forward. And the leader is the guy out front who's I'm gonna pull us forward,
I think that destroys teams is bosses and leaders who aren't [00:27:00] doing the things they're asking of their people, right? Hey, we're gonna come in early, and then he shows up last, Or, I need you to get this thing in on time. But when the team member's Hey, you said you were gonna tell us you were gonna share with his, he's oh, without.
it's so timely what you just said because the whole return to office thing was that, and the company that comes to mind is Starbucks and this new CEO and he is everyone will be in the office. I live in California and I come up one day a week type thing, and it's I don't know if that's a good idea, right?
No. Yeah. I mean it's a wholesale, we're gonna pivot in this way and a lot of times without a lot of like, why though? a lot of people need the why and the how, not just the what, like how are we gonna do this and why is this important and what's the benefit?
And if I can get behind that, then okay. But if it's just because you said so, then yeah. No. And that builds trust and gets buy-in, if you will. Absolutely. and on the trust note, what is the quickest way for a leader just to lose their team's trust? If they feel like all their interactions are transactional [00:28:00] is the first thing that comes to mind.
Okay. 'Cause trust goes both ways, right? So if I trust you and you trust me that now's there's a relationship and there can be influence on both sides and impact, and we can work together. But if I'm just trying to get your walls down enough where I can get what I want from you, but I'm not actually, I don't really care about the relationship.
Eventually people feel that and they just feel you just want, so it's the boss who comes in and goes, Hey, how you doing? And they're like, what do you want? Yeah. Which is all too common. And so I think, again, that goes back to you don't know how your people experience you and you don't know your own tendencies.
You're not self-aware that you do this all the time. do you just think this is normal and this is fine. and they're not telling you that it's not. So you deal with a lot of managers and leaders, and you've dealt with hundreds of them. And do you think, is there a common mistake that new managers or leaders make?
I think it's because they come from having done the job. Most of them, they were really good at this, and so they're really good at sales. And so now they're the. Chief Revenue Officer, they're the head of sales [00:29:00] or VP of sales, whatever. And it's again, like we talked about, it's a different job.
and so the mistake is because they haven't been trained, which is organizationally a mistake, they think that they're serving their team by just. I'll do that for you. It'll go faster. Just give that to me has a problem. There's a fire to put out. I'll just, I'll fix it. Just don't worry about it.
And if on the outside it's oh, how you like to thank you for stepping in and taking that from me. But it does two things. They're both really negative. It puts more on the leader's plate than is necessary. So now he or she is overwhelmed and overworked and overburdened and they're not able to do things that only they can do.
And this employee is not being trained in how to do that next time there's a fire, they go I'll just go to Joe. Joe, can you help me with this? And they're like, oh yeah, let me solve your problem. So they're being trained. That when there's a problem, just take it to your boss. And that's like a vicious circle. It's a, because that leader has say a dozen people under him, and if he does one task for each of them, they don't have time to [00:30:00] lead. They're doing and, yep, that's right. And then the team starts to lose their skill. What do you think separates great leaders from just average leaders?
I think there's a few things that come to mind. Again, ones that don't know themselves and their team well enough to know what everybody needs. So maybe they are somewhat self-aware. They've learned some things about how they lead or who they are, and they've had maybe some good mentors or bosses or coaches in the past, but they aren't as intentional and others aware as they need to be with their team.
So there may be a really good boss and a good leader, and so maybe they're really high support and they're like, man, I really like you, but I don't always know that. I am being pushed like I want to be, or I don't know what's next for me here. Or, when I mess up or when so and so messes up.
There's not a lot of consequence. There's not a lot of accountability, but I like you and so I like working with you. But they aren't feeling like they're being sharpened and pushed and the bar's not raised, conversely, you have the one who's man, I think you're really good at your job.
You're really good at this. This company's really successful. [00:31:00] But I don't know that you know anything about my life outside of here. And I kinda wish you did 'cause I'm a person, so I think and people are wired to be good at one or the other based on how their makeup is.
Some people are really naturally good at being high support, but they struggle with challenge 'cause they don't wanna hurt people's feelings and step on toes. They don't wanna lose the relationship. They don't wanna drive people away. And then you have people that are really good at challenge and they're really good at.
driving people forward, and here's where we're going and casting vision and holding a deadline and keeping people accountable. They're not very good at support. that feels like a waste of time. And it's we don't, there's no room for relationships and friendships in the workplace.
We're just doing our job. And maybe not extremes, but they err to one side or the other, and the area where they need to really step up gets neglected. and so people may like them or think that they're really competent, but they're missing something.
So they may be good, but they're not great. Interesting. Wow. it's amazing the psychological component of all of. And so Leadwell your company you are based here in Austin, is where you live. Yep. But you were sharing with [00:32:00] me, you have clients in West Texas, you have clients in Houston, central Texas, Mississippi, from a municipality client you shared with me to a Fortune 500 company to mid-size and small-sized companies.
And if someone wanted to connect with you and figure out, whether it would be a good fit. I'll drop your LinkedIn, profile in the notes but how would they contact you? Yeah, it's real simple. When you go to, Lead well.com, there's a contact and it just sets up a discovery call to go, Hey, here's what's going on, even to see if it's a good fit for you, and a good fit for me, right?
oh yeah, I can help you with this. Or it's actually, this isn't probably, I'm not the solution that you need. You may be looking for this, and you work with companies who have no leadership program and you work as well, I think with companies that have a leadership program or have one in the past.
But maybe didn't wanna level up or have a second set of eyes. what we have done for so long isn't working like it used to. or there's new leadership and they're like, this thing needs some new blood and some fresh wind blowing into the sails.
And so they're like let's figure out a different way to do this. or they've just never done anything. Yeah. So because what you're doing at five employees is different at 50 is [00:33:00] different at 500. Or the revenue number, right? You have to, I would imagine, have different leadership aspects cover it as you as well in a lot of ways.
But again, it's if you are self-aware and others aware and you know how to develop your people and how to show up for them and how to challenge them, then whether you're the mid-level manager or you're. CFO, like it applies to everybody. That's what's been so cool, right? it applies to the CEO and it applies to the first year individual contributor, the same concepts.
Yeah. Okay. So in that vein, you would be training. The challenges are different. So when I sit down to do coaching, the things that they're trying to solve are different. But a lot of, How do we put this into practice? With what you're going through? With what you're dealing with as opposed to what the application's different, but in terms of like, how do we try to think about this and solve it and step back and remember, okay.
you're a guardian and so you're obviously very good at the black and white details. Don't forget, your manager down here is not wired like you. And so you have to understand [00:34:00] the problem that you're trying to solve feels really obvious to you. It doesn't to them. So how are you communicating in a way that gets them on board?
And it seems to me in that vein, a huge detriment to companies that have no leadership program because like you said, you're training the CEO all the way down to the lower levels who get this training will be. I would imagine far better leaders than the average CEO. And so if you extrapolate and think 5, 10, 15 years in an organization's life, if they don't plant those seeds Yeah.
And people leave and whatnot, sure. But some of them stay and so if, I would think you would, if you plant those seeds, it goes along. And so you had mentioned a 12 month course. is there a comeback that you do or is it pretty much that core? Yeah, so for example. with the city of Midland, I'm working with the executive leadership team, so it's like all of the directors of every component of the city, right?
So you have the fire chief and the assistant chiefs, and you have the police chief and the assistant police. you have the head of hr, but you don't have their teams. I'm not working with them. [00:35:00] So 2.0 would be like, okay, now let's get your teams involved and let's work this into the fabric of all of your teams.
So now you have been. Trained and are learning to adopt the language and the tools for yourself, but now it's bringing your people into it and also creating them self-awareness for themselves, and so that typically is a really easy 2.0. but also I, I. Some of them we'll stay on in a consulting role on more of a retainer, or they'll be like, Hey, after this, can we keep you on for some one-on-one coaching with some people
So there are different ways that it looks after that initial year. And again, it depends on what their pain points are, what they need, what their budget is. it's different. Company. exactly what they're trying to solve for. This was wonderful, Brett, thank you. Yeah, man.
Thanks for having me.